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« Does Shari'a Libel Law Now Apply in the U.S.? | Main | Islamic Charities and the IRS »

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Denny Crane

I'm confused. Is this something new?

Our citizens, military, academic, or otherwise, should be open to lawsuit and subject to the laws of other nations. Particularly when we travel to other nations.

If a person's actions are entirely within our borders, what is the real recourse achieved by that person being sued and losing said case in some other nation? It would be up to the person to fight the case or not show up or whatever.

The obvious exception to all this is where treaties between the nations come into play. We're constitutionally obligated to live up to treaties we've signed, so that part is a no-brainer.

There's precedent here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalese_cable-car_disaster

Aaron Eitan Meyer

Well, there are two main factors that need to be addressed.

First, in the age of the internet, there's little that can completely fall into the category 'entirely within our borders.' In this case, the ostensible 'basis' for the defamation suit was something like five copies sold online in England. Neither party to the suit was British; it was simply a convenient forum for Mahfouz to intimidate an American citizen without having to account for anything himself. The catch with not responding, or otherwise refusing to comply with such a court's demand is that a default judgment is entered against her, which will have ramifications ranging from non-US publication of subsequent works to other, legal penalties.

Nor is it analogous to the cable car case, as the act that is at issue, being the publication of 'defamatory' statements, happened within the US - and the ONLY reason for bringing the suit in England was in order to defeat the American laws that should have applied.

Second, regarding the matter of treaties, recalling the Pacifus Letters is in order. There were many who simply proclaimed that, since the US was bound by certain international treaties, the Constitution itself demanded action. It took Hamilton's reminder to the people that the issue was anything but as 'clear' as they believed it to be. Presently, considering the US' state of war against terrorist ideology, other purely executive 'core powers' also come into play, such as national security and so on.

Dr. Ehrenfeld acted, in this country, in accordance with the rights guaranteed by the Constitution - rights that do not stem FROM the text, but are rather elucidated in it, as a grant by the People, who remain the actual Sovereigns of the nation. Indeed, it could be argued that any treaty that could lead to the deprivation of American rights abroad, especially by actions like that of Mahfouz, is wholly repugnant to the Constitution, and annulled.

Denny Crane

I've heard of stories where a US citizen travels to Egypt and buys some piece of antiquity, not knowing it's true nature. When they try to leave the country to go home, they're arrested and sent to jail. There's nothing the US Embassy can do about it.

This is somewhat analogous to the cable car incident, but the soldiers were in fact protected by treaty and the Italian SC ruled that the treaty overrode the nation's right to pursue a case.

So, I'm still failing to see where there is a deprivation of our rights abroad - we have whatever rights those nations allow us in any case.

There's this, which is a criminal case:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1557842,00.html
(Didn't stand up)

Your article is about civil actions. Again, I'm not seeing the case you're trying to make yet.

We have similar criminal protections here in the USA: you can live in Chicago, travel to Vegas where gambling is legal, and go home to Chicago where it's not and not face a criminal gambling charge there. However, you can certainly be sued by a person or company from another state if you defame them (for example) via the Internet, or other means.

Let me turn the question around. What if this truly is a case of defamation here, by some US based academic against a foreign person?

Aaron Eitan Meyer

If it were truly defamatory, the aggrieved individual could just as easily sue here. And again, the act itself takes place entirely within the US.

To use a domestic legal analogy, it's as if an defamatory act takes place in New York, where the defendant resides, and the plaintiff, who lives in Nevada, sues in Wisconsin, on the flimsy basis that a couple of copies were available there.

You mention the fact that one can be sued after the allegedly defamatory statement is seen over the internet. That is, indeed, a major problem right now domestically - but still fundamentally different than the case being discussed. In such an instance, between states, the First Amendment still governs, and defamation laws must conform to the overall federal scheme.

But to return to your question, the fact is that this type of suit was tried in the US, by various Islamist organizations, who had the suits thrown out as frivolous, or otherwise dismissed in the United States. It was after those cases that the suits were brought in foreign arenas - for the express purpose of preventing the protections of the American system. That is what I'm referring to in the context of 'laws' repugnant to the Constitution.

It doesn't even pay to flip your question around, and to ask why Mahfouz did not bring his action in the United States. That much, at least, is all too clear.

Denny Crane

I meant...

Shouldn't there be protections in the case where someone within the borders of the US does indeed slander someone overseas?

The question of venue should be up to the person slandered, or it becomes an unreasonable burden for justice to be done.

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